talking input, output and cake!

Twelve of us here , two girls and a brand new Baby too. Welcome Jac into our group… Voiced by a few was the need for a more nurturing situation, a getting to know each other and grow our relationships, it was admitted that most in the room were feeling a decided lack in this area. To conclude that the ‘church’ which should be the growing nurturing and caring side of fellowship was not adequately fulfilling her role. This fellowship is certainly supposed to focus on the outward looking side of things. The ‘Arrow’ took the floor for most of the second half including a huge chunk of what is discipleship and where are we lacking in our foundations? We are grateful to all who participated, it was a wonderful eye- opener for us all and a huge reminder of what we should be about. Next week is the first birthday of the fellowship! We intend to have a party! Cake is welcome! Oh yes, lets look back on the last year see where we have been, and take stock and make some planes for where we want to take ‘us’ further. What does the new year hold in store for us? There is talk of possibly including a ‘input side of the fellowship… don’t miss out, it promises to be an exciting evening!

20th June 2009

Facilitator: Ansie

It is not a Typo, this weeks topic has been moved to next week as the discussion grew organically from the, “what would you like to share” part of the evening.

Jp and Rita shared the idea of the opportunity of doing the LAMP training, something to hopefully look forward to.

Grant shared his impression of the modern Chinese belief system which he encountered during his recent trip to Beijing, that what he encountered was not as much a saturation of Buddhism as he was expecting but rather atheism combined with a deep rooted superstition.

Marlene updated us as to her walk, what media village is and what she’s expecting her scheduling to look like; effectively that she’ll only have two weeks between her training with media village and the trip to India.

Marc and Paulien shared their impressions of the Feet training which they are in the process of completing, along with Grant and Suzanna. Feet is a training and church planting movement which instigates and encourages church growth by a radical grassroots methodology/strategy. Discouraging preaching and teaching in order to diminish the “toxic” teaching found in modern established churches

This is when the topic changed...

Questions around radical nature of the training caused an amount of discussion. Fully embracing it would require a lot of unlearning of the institutionalized church, would this be throwing out the baby with the bathwater, or a clean sweep? does limiting the preaching and teaching limit extended learning; Simpler better?

As with so many fellowship discussions, we attempt to evaluate the strategic elements of the idea/training or movement being brought to the group. It would need to be something we return to as a topic, as those doing the training still need to complete the training, but a conclusion was reached that it needs to be assessed against the directives of the Church(the people/body, not the institution), and not only on a personal reaction level. Specifically brought to light is the element of discipleship, a directive. What does it mean to disciple?

This topic will most likely be carried over to next week as well.

THE SABBATH

Saturday 13 June 2009

Facilitator: JJ Janse van Rensburg

After opening with prayer and song, JJ asked people to give feedback of what happened to us in the last week

Another Sacred Cow - The Sabbath
JJ asked: Which day of the week is the Sabbath? Do we need to keep it?
Ansie said the Israelites gathered-in manna 6 days of the week and had to take a double portion on the 6th day.
Ex 31:13-16
12-13The Lord then gave these further instructions to Moses: “Tell the people of Israel to rest on my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a reminder of the covenant between me and you forever; it helps you to remember that I am Jehovah who makes you holy. 14-15Yes, rest on the Sabbath, for it is holy. Anyone who does not obey this command must die; anyone who does any work on that day shall be killed. 16-17Work six days only, for the seventh day is a special day to remind you of my covenant—a weekly reminder forever of my promises to the people of Israel. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and rested on the seventh day, and was refreshed.”

Gen 2:2-3 (before the 10 commandments were given)
2And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Rita asks what quantifies work? Paulien asks if everybody knows what holy actually means? (set apart, dedicated/devoted to something specific, reserved, sacred = dedicated to God)

Jesus “worked” on the Sabbath and was fiercely attacked by the Pharisees for it. He was under the Law and had to keep it to the letter so that He could stand blameless as the perfect Sacrifice (Leviticus 23:3 3‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.) Convocation = assembly. The Law was pointing towards the Messiah and to show sin. Because you love Him (relationship) you obey the Law.

Rina said their study of the subject revealed that God gave the Sabbath to us as present/free gift. He wants 2 refresh our whole beings with His presence, regenerate us completely and help us focus, plan for the week ahead.
Jesus was also given to us as a free gift – it is the individual’s choice to receive it or not
Mark said that keeping the Sabbath is indicative of relationship. Paulien said that God put a timetable of 6: 1 in place as a rhythm for our lives and by doing so creates a gap for us to forge that relationship with Him. The problem is we work God’s work on the Sabbath, not so much building relationship with Him

Mark said the Sabbath is a command to rest and take a break from what you normally do and read Mark 2:27 27 And Jesus concluded, “The Sabbath was made for the good of human beings; they were not made for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Where is God on your Sabbath? Rita says to worship the Lord and enjoy His goodness
JJ asked whether going to church and having church on the same day is keeping the Sabbath?
Malcolm said that we reinforce our identity as believers by keeping the Sabbath and to not neglect the gathering of the saints.
Does the New Testament require us to keep the Sabbath? Do we have to gather on the Sabbath? And can the Sabbath be on any day of the week? Is gathering/worshipping work? Does the group agree that observing the Sabbath is separate from going to church?

JP asked what is the essence of fellowshipping? When/what else must we do? What surrounds the Sabbath? What is the shape of the rest/work? (work= when something is a commitment, sacrifice or is an obligatory system)
But what do we really do on a Sunday? Is Sunday the Sabbath? Is the Sabbath the last day of the week or the first?

For 5 days we work for/in the world, 1 day for ourselves and the last day for God – so when is the rest day? What do we rest from? When do we work in the kingdom then?
What are we doing for 6 days to ‘deserve’ a rest day and is it centralized around the kingdom? Or do we allocate time daily for the kingdom? Is our work our calling or a job? If we don’t work the kingdom, do we deserve a break? Is the Sabbath only for believers?

Suzanna said that we work for a living and JJ asked who in fact puts food on the table?
Paulien said Paul also worked his tent-making and didn’t want to be a burden on his flock and so was paying his own way. He took money from the church and gave it to others. JP said Paul had no problem accepting money for himself, but whenever he took money cross cultural/unreached, problems arose. Discipleship and going is in the same continuum.


After supper break JJ related his meeting with an Indian trader, Ramo, who is a Hindu and working towards becoming a Swarmi himself. JJ was captured by his spiritual journey, as he believes in Jesus and could quote Christian scripture. The Hindus have 33 million gods, they believe in reincarnation but also in The Creator of the universe. They believe that God is the CEO of the universe and the other deities do the work of helping people on their own journeys. God is almighty, what you sow you reap. Hindu’s only need to know the deities though and no other knowledge of God is required. Their scriptures over lap with ours, they can believe the Swarmis’ because they hear from God well enough as if God is talking.

JJ’s big Question: how do you reach Ramo in face of so many similarities and stern convictions? JJ thinks Ramo is much surer of his spiritual course than he himself – JJ thinks that maybe he should first become a much better/stronger believer before pursuing a friendship with Ramo. JJ feels he doesn’t have enough knowledge and felt that he had to listen and observe only when meeting with Ramo. Ramo already only wears yellow as a sign of a dedicated renunceate – in our context it is the same as baptism. Paulien put forward the idea that maybe Ramo was sent to JJ and not visa versa (not for conversion but for sharpening). She also thinks he is right as he is and must decide if he really wants to pursue a relationship with Ramo.

At this point we started talking about the Indian trip which Swarmi G has to confirm for 10 – 24 October. Cost is about 12K per person. Trip will coincide with the festival of lights. (Main Diwali date 17 Oct)

JP’: If you are not going to your breaking point, your road is heading in the wrong direction. He tells of an American preacher relating a story of the Cherokee believer who thanked the Church for introducing and giving them Jesus and then asked whether the church ever wants to hear what Jesus gave the Cherokee’s?

Tuesday at 11h00 there is a workgroup to finalise the new KE program.

JP reminds us that KE is a working/doing group also, not just a talking forum.
Who are we reaching out to? Is God telling me to do it or is it just a good idea?
Someone suggested getting a box together for Oliver, so that we can put provision in it for him to take.
1 John 3:16 – 18 is the irreducible minimum commandment
16This is how we know what love is: Christ gave his life for us. We too, then, ought to give our lives for our brothers and sisters! 17Rich people who see a brother or sister in need, yet close their hearts against them, cannot claim that they love God. 18My children, our love should not be just words and talk; it must be true love, which shows itself in action

Part of the beginning of your journey is the poor, the widow, the orphans and the strangers – Jesus commanded and did. We must break through that ceiling at least otherwise we will never see more. JP recommends that we go to unreached-cross cultural situation at least once a year to stay focused and in touch. Continually unhook yourself from religious hooks - service to others/nations does it for anyone.


Next week Ansie is presenting the topic of the giants and the daughters of man as in Genesis 6:4. Mark will give feedback on the FEET 1 training being held at their house over next weekend

Suzanna requested Tithing as a topic for the week after.

Ps: don’t forget that your toot brush is holy!

The writer apologises for the late posting

They are back! Episode 2

The evening was spent asking questions and discussing them. We spoke about the aspect of going on outreaches, doing things wrong and learning from them. But it is at the expense of the people group that was visited. Why must the same mistakes be made again and again?

We asked JP and Rita some questions on their trip and issues in general. Here are some of them:
- God orchestrated the circumstances beautifully. It seems that they always were just at the right place at the right time. They spoke to the right people and they could give input into lives at times when it was really needed.
-Q: Is there an overall theme you picked up at all missionaries you visited? A: Communication with senders is a big issue. They feel they need to perform and cannot talk openly with their senders. Some also have the paradigm of the purpose of missions that sodalities does not have, and this creates frustration.
- Q: It was read that it is better for a person to do missions among his own people rather than an outside person coming to do mission. E.g. an Indian doing missions in India instead of a South Africa. Is that true? A: The reason why 'western' missions often do not work is that missionaries do not lay down their lives and become like the local people. A western way of doing things are forced on the people.

"Dey are Bahk" - Arnie S

Oka-a-ay...
So Jean-Pierre and Rita are back with a bang!
A power-point was given reporting back on their trip to the east. It was well received, even though, trying to squash three months into three hours took quite a lot of rearrangement of thoughts and priorities. One of the most outstanding features of their trip to the East was that they are now, more than ever, absolutely convinced that God goes before them! Each step of the way they are able to pinpoint sighting His hand. They were at the right place at just the right time in all there stops along the way, in such a way they could never have planned.
Thankfully they were able to get through the evening sans motor scooter helmets. Once they got started, the only trammel was time. They are pleased that those present did not 'obviously' fall asleep during their travels on the screen. Thank you all for a wonderful welcome. As per usual, food was great and fellowship with friends even greater!